tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post5543849305957822337..comments2024-01-26T11:43:48.054-08:00Comments on Career Limiting Moves: Formal FallaciesZachariah Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-76420569786459997702010-01-01T18:46:15.330-08:002010-01-01T18:46:15.330-08:00Zach:
An anthology is not necessarily a small pub...Zach:<br /><br />An anthology is not necessarily a small publisher's worst nightmare, if they can break even, or come close to it. I edited Owl's Head for a number of years, and the best scenario was when a poet promoted their own work--not standing naked on Main St. scaring the locals, but quietly (or not so quietly) got the word and the books out there. I curtailed my publishing companyAl Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-54371953428908995602010-01-01T08:08:16.649-08:002010-01-01T08:08:16.649-08:00I agree, Al, but I'm not in a position to make...I agree, Al, but I'm not in a position to make a multi-year commitment to the project--because that's what it would require in order to do it justice--without a firm commitment from a publisher. And this sort of book is a small press publisher's worst financial nightmare.Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-3775868531034397312009-12-31T21:29:27.504-08:002009-12-31T21:29:27.504-08:00Zach:
The more I think about the idea of the anth...Zach:<br /><br />The more I think about the idea of the anthology, the more I like it. There are publishers out there, and there are avenues of funding. If an anthology is engaging, it's bound to find a way and an audience. I think the work needs to be done.<br /><br />Let's talk some more.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />AlAl Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-55854852797490142242009-12-30T06:32:56.033-08:002009-12-30T06:32:56.033-08:00Zach:
I'm heading for the Annapolis Valley th...Zach:<br /><br />I'm heading for the Annapolis Valley this morning to visit relatives, but wanted to get back to you before I head out. I think your idea of an anthology is very good, and I like your working title. I know how little interest there is for anthologies among publishers, but I still think it should be pursued. Keep in touch.<br /><br />AlAl Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-85831506544949802002009-12-30T03:26:21.982-08:002009-12-30T03:26:21.982-08:00What you're talking about sounds something lik...What you're talking about sounds something like Heaney and Hughes' Rattle Bag anthology. This is one of the few anthologies that actually reads well as a book, in large measure because it is far more eccentric than canonical. My only complaint is that, as with most English-language anthologies published in the UK or Britain, Canada is under-represented.<br /><br />A backburner idea I'Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-60496325587445622222009-12-29T17:51:13.183-08:002009-12-29T17:51:13.183-08:00Zach:
Well, why don't we talk about an anthol...Zach:<br /><br />Well, why don't we talk about an anthology, and one that isn't disappointing or deflating but one that brings into focus some of the things we've been discussing here? It would be worked over time,maybe a long time, rather than the 24 hours or so we've been exchanging information here. We could place Blake next to Nowlan, or Thurston next to Wordsworth or Clare Al Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-28030119024386055112009-12-29T17:16:47.324-08:002009-12-29T17:16:47.324-08:00What I think is more remarkable is how well he wro...What I think is more remarkable is how well he wrote despite his social class and lack of formal education. Poets like Clare and Nowlan are the exceptions that prove the rule. Acorn, e.g., for all his prole poses, was basically a middle-class kid. It's cases like Clare and Nowlan that make me wonder about Gray's "mute inglorious Miltons." Maybe adverse circumstances just weed Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-80996160562002980742009-12-29T15:00:09.972-08:002009-12-29T15:00:09.972-08:00Zach:
In between dimming lights and a darkening a...Zach:<br /><br />In between dimming lights and a darkening afternoon I managed to find one of my Clares (an edition which reprints Arthur Symons' selection from 1908, punctuation added, etc.) which will do well enough for now. I was first introduced to Clare's work in the 70s by an English friend whose father, a psychiatrist, worked in the same Northampton hospital where Clare was kept Al Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-84485079053941925502009-12-29T11:00:16.650-08:002009-12-29T11:00:16.650-08:00Right--and I agree with what you're saying her...Right--and I agree with what you're saying here: "...anyone without a firm grounding in metrics and prosody will merely reproduce the conventions of mid-to-late 20th Century poetics."<br />One of the problems with 'free verse' is that it implies you can throw everything out the window, ships be damned, and do whatever you want. This never works with poetry, music, fine art Al Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-706650888485281962009-12-29T03:38:16.766-08:002009-12-29T03:38:16.766-08:00Okay fine, but you can't talk about how well a...Okay fine, but you can't talk about how well a poem is written without talking about <i>how</i> it's written. And the more precisely you can delineate that how, the more clear and persuasive the argument will be. So there's no either/or about this, right?<br /><br />And I'm not "critiquing your work"--I'm critiquing a statement you made in an interview. I have no Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-60799173969544595372009-12-28T20:48:52.645-08:002009-12-28T20:48:52.645-08:00Zach:
I think a discussion of form is useful. Pro...Zach:<br /><br />I think a discussion of form is useful. Prose poems (object poems as a sub-form), haiku, Milton Acorn's Jackpine sonnets, are all employed in contemporary poetry, and to good effect. I wrote a series of 'informal' sonnets in my book Singing the Flowers Open, the section entitled A Voice that Rose like the Wind. The lines range from 13 to 17. I've written short Al Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-4982257260560613842009-12-28T19:00:39.352-08:002009-12-28T19:00:39.352-08:00Heh. Digging for a bone? I'm not the one respo...Heh. Digging for a bone? I'm not the one responding to a 6 month old blog post!<br /><br />The problem isn't that I'm splitting hairs, it's that you're splitting logs with dynamite, in that you use terminology that should have specific precise meanings in a hand-wavingly general manner. If the terms are used precisely, they're of some analytical use. If they're used Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-12114200856937597932009-12-28T16:58:16.585-08:002009-12-28T16:58:16.585-08:00Well, at least I admire your tenacity. You're ...Well, at least I admire your tenacity. You're a bit like a dog digging for a bone, but unfortunately the bone is elsewhere. As I understand it, Geoffrey and Carmine are self-proclaimed formalists. And if all we're doing here is splitting hairs about who is more formal than whom, then frankly I don't see the point. I think we should be considering the quality of the work, not the form Al Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-10581241920063782392009-12-28T16:26:31.937-08:002009-12-28T16:26:31.937-08:00Thanks for the clarification, Al, but the only thi...Thanks for the clarification, Al, but the only thing I'd withdraw on the basis of what you've said is that you ignored part of the question.<br /><br />What you say bespeaks the crudeness with which these issues of form get analysed. Wordsworth, Keats, Blake, Clare, Smart are formalists? Since when? Christ, they could only be seen this way from the wrong end of the historical telescope. Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-28238769583534932982009-12-28T11:50:46.845-08:002009-12-28T11:50:46.845-08:00Zach:
I’d like to clear up a few points that you’...Zach:<br /><br />I’d like to clear up a few points that you’ve made here. Firstly, many of my favourite poets are, or have been Formalists. I studied Robert Frost for a year, and I go back again and again to Wordsworth, Blake, John Clare, Christopher Smart, Keats, Dylan Thomas, Seamus Heaney, the early formal poetry of Alden Nowlan and James Wright, among many others. I agree with Peter that Al Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14042023658384173462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-10905494902400700672009-05-29T07:52:56.760-07:002009-05-29T07:52:56.760-07:00Part of the problem is the root problem of most fr...Part of the problem is the root problem of most free verse lyric/narrative poems: that it's all about his "I" and not enough about the actual and potential carrying capacity of poetry in English, most of which--never mind my own--has employed formal constraints, which have been adapted to fit all manner of subject matter. Whether it's an "attack"--your term, not mine--or just an ignorant Zachariah Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241595894807722933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31341356110251854.post-22758386718385733132009-05-29T07:42:30.213-07:002009-05-29T07:42:30.213-07:00Zach,
I think you're being too hard on Cooper....Zach,<br /><br /> I think you're being too hard on Cooper. Note his repetitive use of the word "I." I certainly didn't think he was dismissing formal verse in the way you characterized, I think instead he was saying it wasn't right for him. Could you be perpetrating the fallacy of internalizing his position, and somehow making itan attack against your (often formal) poetry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com